Money and Relationships Workshop 5: Cash or Credit?

CASH
How do you feel about cash? What is your personal attitude toward it?
Is it good? Bad? Neutral?

"Dirhams and dinars are not created for any particular purpose; they are useless by themselves; they are just like stones. They are created to circulate from hand to hand, to govern and to facilitate transactions. They are symbols to know the value and grades of goods.
They can be symbols, units of measure, because of this very lack of usefulness, indeed lack of any particular feature other than value."
… the same is the case with money--it has no purpose of its own, but it serves as a medium for the purpose of exchanging goods.
From this it also follows that lending money at interest must be illegitimate, since it means using money as an end in itself. "money is not created to earn money.'' …
Money is thus a unit of measure that provides a means of assessing the value of goods, but also one that operates as such only if it stays in constant motion. --Prophet Ghazali (1058-1101AD) Debt, p. 281

Cold cash was employed largely between strangers, or when paying rents, tithes and taxes to landlords, bailiffs, priests, and other superiors. … coins were most likely to be used both by the sort of people who ran the legal system--the magistrates, constables, and justices of the peace--and by those violent elements of society they saw it as their business to control. Debt, p.329

討論逐字稿 for Becoming Workshop 5: What do we owe our parents?

This is the transcript and notes to our fifth Hands-on Philosphy workshop at Becoming, "What do we owe our parents?".
The transcript below actually starts at the end of the discussion with the Concluding Statements, which was where all the participants in the discussion made a statement on something they understood during the class or answering one or some of the questions provided for focus.
After the concluding statments are the notes and transcript from the first part of the class.

Concluding Statements:
-I kept wondering what should i say after this, because we were discussion and discussing, the conclusion is i said what i wanted during the discussion. Today i heard a lot of stories, it was more interesting than the other ones, because more stories.
I still think i owe my parents something. Especially when i grew up and i realized that it's not easy. When i grow up and go through what they did before i realize it. Knowing it's hard and noticing they went through it although it is hard. But i still don't believe that i owe i don't agree that i owe them what society thinks that i owe them. Sometimes i will complain that they didn't give the things that the others had, but they give the things that others don't have. Not have enough money or go do university in debt, tickets to paraguay, and we were happy, there was no suffering. Later i realize a lot of people have suffering [in their family]. So i think i would find a way to, to not sacrifice, but rethink my ability to pay back to them, to pay back my parents.

-I think, owing is an old chinese concept, and i think i don't like this kind of, i don't like this idea, it's negative, it's passive, it doesn't create good relationships because if you think you owe someone, you need to pay it back in the future, which creates pressure between you and them, and this pressure will turn into a tension between you and your parents. Um, i want to, i think it's better for us to treat this kind of relationship as a learning process. You know, parents need children needs to learn how to be a better person by raising kids.
-that's what you were saying earlier
-yes
-and children and kids can watch their parents, how they do their best to raise kids, they learn from their parents. So we are all learning it’s not that we are in mutual debt. I want to turn this kind of relationship to a positive relationship, not a negative one.
-you're reframing our today's discussion framework, you're saying it shouldn’t be about debt or not debt, it should be a bout mutual learning.
-because we have this kind of idea all in our lives, and it doesn't give any good to us
-it doesn't help us!
-right, so we have to change our concept.

-That's a good segue way, changing the framework. I see if it's a debt, or an obligation, owing is part of debt, it's not voluntary, it's a social bond that can't be quantified. I think that we do have our duties obligations to each other, we can obviously pay back, not pay back our debt, but try to fulfil our obligations to all the people that raised us, influenced us, our bodies, minds, spirits, we came from somewhere, we were inspired by people, we can't think we have to match that exactly, but the past can be, not paid back, but we can fulfil this obligation with the people who will come after, whether it's trying to raise our children well, or maximise their chances of being okay, not going into parenting lightly, and acknowledging the sacrifices our parents made, but also doing what we can to improve the quality of the world. But i think parents owe their children, it's a lesser time frame, but from 0 to 18 or 20, they owe them so much to keep them safe, and put them into a good enough environment to be at least okay. Success means being able to reach self-sufficiency? There has to be more than that. Children should acknowledge what the parents did for them. That they can look after them in their old and frail age, not equivalent at all, but they can show themselves in what they do in their life.

Money and Relationships Workshop 4: What do we owe our parents?

Nature Writer Ernest Thompson Seton had an odd bill presented to him on his twenty-first birthday. It was a record kept by his father of all the expenses connected with young Ernest's childhood and youth, including the fee charged by the doctor for delivering him. Even more oddly, Ernest is said to have paid it. I used to think that Mr. Seton Senior was a jerk, but now I'm wondering. Margaret Atwood, 'Payback'

Most of us wouldn't wonder much. Such behaviour seems monstrous, inhuman. Certainly Seton found it so: he paid the bill, but never spoke to his father again afterward. And in a way, this is precisely why the presentation of such a bill seems so outrageous. Squaring accounts means that the two parties have the ability to walk away from each other. By presenting it, his father suggested he'd just as soon have nothing further to do with him. David Graeber, Debt, p.92

討論逐字稿 for Becoming Workshop 4: Business or Friendship? Part 2

This is the transcript and notes to our fouth Hands-on Philosphy workshop at Becoming, 'Business or Friendship'.
The transcript below actually starts at the end of the discussion with the Concluding Statements, which was where all the participants in the discussion made a statement on something they understood during the class or answering one or some of the questions provided for focus.

After the concluding statments are the notes and transcript from the first part of the class.


Concluding Statements:
-What’s the difference between sharing and trading? Friendship and business? Communal and transactional relationships?
-Could money substitute for communal relations? Does money displace communal relations? Does introducing money end communal relations?

-There's a question lingering for me, there's a value statement
-Like debt is a moral issue?
-I feel like there's an assumption or value judgement, or talk about how you value things, before we can answer this questions. Or maybe they're leading there. But going back to exploring why these universal or general values, how they came to be, or the historical or social roots of these values...In sociology we talk about paradigms, like in terms of abortion? It fundamentally gets down to how you view the world, and what you value. So you can talk about things to no end, but if you don't know your own values, you can't convince other people. So there’s' this fundamental difference going on, that's at the core of this class. It's almost like do you like or dislike money? Is it fundamentally bad? Is it necessary or good? You can also say you're both. It's hard for me to answer these questions in this way.

-If you have a relationship, you don't pay money to get anything, and if you don't have a relationship, you can't pay any amount of money to get it. I think it's important to define these details, to get to what sharing is what trading is.
-I would say, sharing I would put them into the two ends of the line. The more lines there is, then it would create a net. It's important to differentiate these things so you can know what the net is. And everybody has their, on the line, you may be close to another end or, it's like you have a color, but the color has different tones, and you can choose the tone you want and add it to the other colors as you like to create the whole picture. If you don't differentiate, you won't know where this color comes from and know how to make the color you want.

討論逐字稿 for Becoming Workshop 3: Business or Friendship?

This is the transcript and notes to our third Hands-on Philosphy workshop at Becoming, "Business or Friendship?"

Concluding Statements
-The topic today is business and friendship, and we talked about sharing, but I don't think friendship doesn't equal sharing, emotionally or in relationships. Like I can share things, but we're not necessarily friends, I can share a seat on the MRT, but it doesn't mean we have a bond.

-For me I feel what we're talking about today is a bit like a community, like a community is composed of a lot of small communities, and among the small communities, some people share things together, during this sharing process, people might start to have some mutual goal, they create some mutual goal together, therefore they cooperate together to make things better. For example, in a big community, people might start to think what to do to make life better to make a better life, to make a company, or import things to make people living here richer. Sometimes they have a kind of shi ming, mission. They want to make the community have a better life, not just themselves but for the whole people
-A wider self interest.

-One thing that's interesting, we started with sharing, to cooperation, to communalism, these are all things a good teacher would encourage. I didn’t see these things as different or these things are at odds or have different goals or methods. I thought they all went together, but we're talking bout them as three different things, so that's something I want to think about. When I tell you to work in a group, what do you feel like, is it more like a community, or cooperating or sharing or what do you think about that. I hate group work, but I encourage it for my students.

-I think there are some things bad in this word I think my culture teach us to do something very good. In our education we're taught to be anything good. But we get into society and we find it doesn't work in that way. We're talking a bout rust cooperation and share, this is the good part. And this discussion, we talk about something that is in detail, and make the definition clear. You have the condition to trust sb else. It doesn’t mean if you don't trust that you're bad, if someone does something betray or hurt, it doesn’t make the ma a bad person. We're a human society, we're not always good. I like today's discussion because this clarified what I think is right. There's bad and good, and there's something that what society really is.

Money and Relationships Workshop 3: Business or Friendship?

What's easier to define, a transaction, or sharing? A business transaction or a friendship? Money-based exchange or communal relations? Which is easier to talk about? Which do we have more precise language for?

What are communal relations? It turns out this is very hard to define actually, so let's talk about trust first:

"In conversation, lies, insults, put-downs and other sorts of verbal aggression are important--but they derive most of their power from the shared assumption that people do not ordinarily act this way: an insult does not sting unless one assumes that others will normally be considerate of one's feelings, and it's impossible to lie to someone who does not assume you would ordinarily tell the truth. When we genuinely wish to break off amicable relations with someone, we stop speaking to them entirely." Debt p.97

討論逐字稿 for Becoming Workshop 2: What makes a relationship work?

This is the transcript and notes to our second Hands-on Philosphy workshop at Becoming, 'What makes relationships work?'

The transcript below starts at the end of the discussion at the Concluding Statements, which was where after a brief pause, all the participants in the discussion made a statement on something they understood during the class, or a statement answering one or some of the questions provided for focus.
After the concluding statments are the notes from the first part of the class.

Concluding statements:
-With the relationship identity thing, for a relationship to work you need the foundation of self on which to stand, you need self reliance, no man is an island. You need to be able to stand alone, you can't be needy, and there has to be, the connections you make, the networks, you have to be on the same page in your outlook of the world, you need to share all kinds of moments entirely, you need to be able to enjoy the silence too, and what makes it work, when every day when you and the other reside grow, and the errors are chances, the mistakes the setbacks are learning opportunities.

-I think for a successful relationship, it's based on you have to know yourself, then you will know your goal, and you can attract someone who has the same goal, and go to the goal together. And the mistake or the error is the opportunity to review your relationship. If you can fix it the relationship will be successful forever, if not the relationship will be broken.
-Be broken forever.....!

Money and Relationships Workshop 2: What makes relationships work?

"The 404 page is that. It's that broken experience on the Web. It's effectively the default page when you ask a website for something and it can't find it. .... It's inherently a feeling of being broken when you go through it. And I just want you to think a little bit about, remember for yourself, it's annoying when you hit this thing. Because it's the feeling of a broken relationship."

討論逐字稿 for Becoming Workshop 1: The Market Society

This is the transcript and notes to our first Hands-on Philosphy workshop at Becoming, 'The Market Society'.

The transcript below actually starts at the end with the Concluding Statements, which was where after a brief pause, all the participants in the discussion made a statement on something they understood during the class, or a statement answering one or some of the questions provided for focus.

After the concluding statments are the notes from the first part of the class and a partial transcript from the second part.


Concluding Statements:
Questions to consider while concluding:
What is money for?
What is community for?
What is community?
What's the difference between professional relationships and friendships?

-I think actually there's no right and wrong for any of this discussion. What I think is mainly….as long as the person is content of what he needs, material or emotionally, money can buy something you want which is an object. And community is something you need emotionally, something that drives these people together. These are the needs of that person, if the person is content, that's what money is for, that's what community is for, it means what it means to that person. As friendship and relationships, if the person needs professional advice, then you go to one person, and if you need friendship or emotional outlets, that's what you get form a friend. It's all what you need at that moment.
-Totally agree. I think it's how we view humans. It's one way, people are a set of needs. Or have a set.

Money and Relationships Workshop 1: The Market Society

What role should money and markets play in our society?

Tea and Bitching

Heeey! I didn't have time to come up with a discussion this week, so I thought we could maybe just share what's uppermost on our minds this week.

Dare to Disagree

In this talk, Margaret Heffernan's basic argument is that conflict is a very good means for creative thinking, because when you set out to respectfully conflict with someone, you can create something that's much stronger and well-functioning. Do you think this is always true? I wonder how this idea would play out in Taiwanese culture. First, let's look at the video: