Playing 討論逐字稿

We discussed the article Playing.

Closing statements
—So I was thinking about an argument I had with a friend recently, he was saying our whole economic system should be based on measuring whether people are productive. That’s a system that values work only. And like the system we’re in now is all about valuing work. So I was thinking, why is play devalued? Why is it seen to be less important? Then I was looking at the part in the article where it says that play is integral to egalitarian societies. Is it that because they’re basically equal, they play? or is it because they play, so equality results? So does that mean play as a concept is inimical to authority? Because people who are socially different cannot play together, like, you can’t play with your boss, or teachers are told not to get too close to kids, because that’ll erase the authority. So our system, which is all about dominance and people being different levels of human, and authority, it can’t tolerate play. It has to be about work to maintain the system. So basically, if we want to break capitalism, we have to play more!

—I would like to answer her question from the perspective of economics…from our discussion play still has rules, still has some kind of elements like work, but the difference...and you still can gain/create something new from playing, but for work you can expect a certain kind of gain or return. But for playing, the rule is set by you or your own team, there's no limitation, you are free. You can do what you want to do, and in the way you want to do it. From the perspective of our economy, the authority of society wants to create a kind of certain return. So it was good for society for everyone to work and not to play. Like everyone, when in an agricultural society, if you are playing to--you still can play with cultivating vegetables and rice, but if you are playing, you won't make a schedule, or set a goal of how much you want to cultivate. So if everyone is playing, then society won't have certain kind of food or clothes, so these are my thoughts on why people appreciate working or not playing. It's about the certainty. And authority can control people if they are working and not playing.

—The best psychotherapy is to let your clients play in the session. When they are playing, its easier to change their state from depressed to not depressed or anxious to not anxious.
—How do you make them play?
—By playing! I play, and so they can play.
—So you set a playful mood.
—Yes, and recently its a philosophy of my work to make myself in a state of playfulness. And I read it from Ericsonian hypnosis, that when the state is changing in the playfulness or humorous way, the clients are more likely to change or relax themselves. So then I develop more thinking about the playfulness. The greatest work are created in the relaxed moment, such as music, or art creation or new ideas, come from a state of relaxation. So the best way to work is playing the work. And somehow I agree with her viewpoint, that it's how we think that defines the play. Besides this I thought that some kind of work requires precision, seriousness, carefulness, you cannot play in this kind of work, but play still has rules. So if we just view our rules are rules, and we can play inside the rules, it'll be better! So yeah, if I can play in the rules, I can define it as a play, then my mental state, then my mood states will change.
—May I say, that to take things not so seriously
—No, children take rules very seriously
—It's true!~
—But our mood is still in the playing. I enjoy my work a lot, it's interesting working with so many different clients. It's interesting and playful. Even though its exhausting, I still enjoy it a lot.
—I read that the area of the brain responsible for insight is also the same one that fires during relaxing and during conversation. The article was saying that it’s NOT the same area as focus, so you can’t really have insight while you’re focussed. But it’s interesting, basically we’re hardwired to have insight while relaxing. Why!
—We had a chapter about creativity in cognitive psychology. Only when we are relaxed can the creativity happen.
—Why did we get designed like that?
—Like in dreams, from a to b is cognitive reasoning thinking. But the opposite way, that irrelevant things can be combined. So in REM sleep the brain goes the 'backwards' way.

—When we mentioned about play, firstly there's this saying, all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. So it seems like play is something contradictory to work.
—Yes, so along with our discussion, in line with our discussion, actually there are a few elements in play, including play, involvement, and without any obligation. And it occurred to me, I tried to think about what point, or what happened in the past, I would consider something as play, and it occurred to me that sometimes I have fun with colleagues or clients, or playing during some trip or have some profound discussion with friends after watching a movie or something. So I think play is a delight, it's a personal dialogue between you and other people or your environment. So I think the distinction between work and play is that play is a reward for yourself.
—So is work!
—Work is a reward from others
—Not necessarily
—Sure, if I’m working and I’m happy there's some playing parts embedded in the work. —For him perhaps, he enjoys some sort of playing with his clients. We won't tell the hospital!
—So I think, we have to work and have to play, and keeping them together, that will make your life in a balance.
—Some people reward themselves with their self-discipline.
—How about listening to broadcasts every day?
—It's learning!
—Well, learning is play, right?
—It could be.
—Actually, it's not always fun.
—Those are not the days I’m on the program, I hope!

—So actually, I’m thinking about the sentence, life is play, I actually so agree with this sentence. When I look back on my childhood, the whole thing was play, because I enjoyed the moment. Even now if I think about this moment, I think, I was happy, so it was play. So when I step out of this time, I think I might also think I was playing my whole life. Like in senior high school, when I think about that time I was really happy, because I was really involved, I was trying to do my best to pass. So 'you must work for a living' maybe at this moment, it's a true sentence, but if you look at it in a longer period, the whole time was playing. So maybe now you have some tough things, but later on, it was just play. Like when children play they also argue, so it's not always happy. They might be hurt when they play.
—But every time when the meet together, they will play again.
—Ah! People will forget that they were unhappy .
—Yes, they will always remember the good things.
—It's a good ending of our discussion.
—And that’s a good thing to remember too!

—Hey, I just had a thought: if the playing is not real, it’s not fun, Like, you can’t play unseriously, do you know what I Mean? If you don’t really put yourself into the playing it’s not as fun.
—So you have to be wholeheartedly involved in it!
—Yes! But also my point is we think of work as serious and playing as not serious. But playing is a serious business!
—Then, what is the difference between work and play?
—Like we said:
—>the level of tolerance for mistakes
—>the level of obligation to do the thing
—>the level of creative involvement
—>how much you’re having fun!
—>whether the purpose is central to the thing or external to it
It kind of seems like work/play is not a yes/no situation. More like a sliding scale that might change even within the time you’re working or playing.

What does 'play' mean?
—Making sound
—Making sound with an instrument
—Trying new things
—Enjoying yourself
—Its not 'working', even though sometimes its hard work
—So you are enjoying yourself escaping from others' expectations.

—To work is to do something for a purpose, and playing is to do something without purpose, just because you want to do it?
—But you are playing an instrument because you want a good sound so you do have a purpose?
—Work is you have to do it and play is you want to do it?

—I feel like work and morality are linked
—Or expectations? Because at work someone will set a goal, maybe you need to finish three papers today, but if you are playing, you just write papers when you want to write.
—Like, people are always amazed at how much free work goes into the internet. Like, people write articles on Wikipedia for free all the time.

Do you play at least once a week?
Yes 4
No 1
—If the definition is doing something fun, then watching TV is playing
—If the definition is doing something new, then it's going on a trip, or reading a new book
—Leisure time and playing are different things.
—Recreation re-creation, being involved in an act of creation for the heck of it.
—Trying a new restaurant is playing. But just sitting with someone and talking with them…
—So if you go to a new place you are playing, go to the old place it is not.
—So if you're talking to your boyfriend, but it's not in a new place, then you're not having fun?!?!
—So you're saying our definition is too limited.
—The animals they're not doing anything new, but it's still playing
—The sense of something new is the consequence of playing

—Do you think smoking pot is playing?
—The point is, if the reward system is firing, then you have the sense of joy or pleasure. —Including eating or sex or smoking marijuana, or cocaine, or heroine.
—Chinese uses 'play' more often than English
—Play is about the reward system, there's an element of pleasure

—How about watching a movie? Is it playing?
—It's recreation!
—I'm going to add another element. Involvement: the difference between recreation and playing.
—Like if you're a dancer.
—But if I’m a dancer I’m working
—But I’ve seen dancers doing it for fun.

—So is this discussion playing?
—Are when we're discussing, are we playing?
—Yes we are.
—Because we are doing something which would make us happy.
—Or maybe we can define it as we're learning. Because when we're discussing, we're not only enjoying, but we need to think other things.

—When a group is working hard and is almost out of energy, people will start joking and its kind of like playing
—And they use the energy of playing to keep going, yes, I think that's playing
—It feels like sarcasm though, sometimes that kind of playing can be hurtful

—As per discussion till now, if you think you are playing, then you are playing. Its a kind of attitude. If you are enjoying and in the moment.

—What do you think is the difference between kids playing and adults playing? In developmental psychology, playing in children or animal cubs, it has an evolutionary meaning. They're practicing skills for the future. Like dogs fighting or cats catching things, it has a survival meaning for the species. So children playing or arguing are practicing social skills. The pretend play has development meanings. So that's how developmental psychologists see it. They can judge the child's developmental state from the way they play.
—Children are trying to figure out the behaviour by modelling it
—They are forming a cognitive schema of the world
—Children will just take machines apart and then reassemble it.
—Usually they don't reassemble though!
—It's a kind of play, like oo! How does this work.
—My cousin's child likes to play cars, and says “this is mother's car, and uncle's car, they need to drive”

—Do you have fun when you're working?
—So is it playing therefore? Or is it still working
—Well it’s fun, but I don't think it's playing. Because you can make mistakes when you are playing, but when you're working there's a much lower tolerance for mistakes
—What if the tolerance is higher?
—It’s still, you can make a lot more mistakes when playing than when working.
—So it's like there's no rule for playing, or at least for some kind of play.
—No, its not about rules, it's about obligation. Like when you're playing an instrument, there's all sorts of rules, but there's no obligation to finish.
—Sometimes play is all about making up a set of rules and then being able to follow them or not follow them.
—Half the fun is arguing about the rules!

—Okay, so far it seems that playing includes involvement, having fun, and having no obligations to it.

—Is going to the gym work?
—Because it's going to there for a purpose
—That's external to the activity!
—But walking on the mountain with my boyfriend, I learn new things, because he's always talking about the things we see.
—So that’s exercise but it’s playing too.