討論逐字稿: CES

From the discussion "CES: A different way to exchange value"

Concluding Statements:
How does the way in which we exchange value impact our relationships with other people?

I will say a lot, I’m sorry. In my opinion, in a barter system, you have to trust the people who provide the things, for instance I exchange this one with her water because I trust her water is good. In the money system, like the modern system, you have to trust in the one who produces the money, endorses it. You have to trust the gvt, that's why we think the US dollar is good, and the Russian not so much, because they're not stable. This kind of money is less valuable.
And for the CES system, I think you first have to trust the accounting system, you have to trust the record in a transparent way, and you have to trust the people as well. Like in yahoo knowledge. If the people are just kidding, and they don't really contribute some valuable knowledge, I wouldn't join this community. So I would say in the first barter system, the people, their connections will be tighter.

I don't have a novel idea but I will try to express it. I think the different way to exchange value, of the two kinds of ways to exchange value, the difference between the two systems is about the distance between people. Some ways to exchange value will enlarge the distance between individuals and some will bring them together. So if we use the way to exchange value over a larger distance, we will have less empathy.

-That's why the international trading thing is so tricky.
-I think this is why the financial crisis happened.
-I totally agree
-I really feel moved right now. We're talking about economics, but economics is actually a system of people relating to each other. At fundamentals, it's not a system of math, it's a system of people. And he nailed it. Good community requires empathy. So a good economic system, which is a community, requires empathy.
-So based on this kind of rationale, this is how CES can fit in the global economy
-Or supplant it

I read the article (on the website) before the discussion, and I liked the point that people create value in CES to earn value. Not anyone manipulating the system to earn money and contribute the thing. And I thought that we are getting used to valuing people by how much money they have. So I like the statement that in CES I contribute to the system, and I earn value, I like that very much.
And I just realized that the point, what he said, maybe it's because of my background, I see that we can decrease the judgment of people based on the amount of money he owes. Maybe the money is not representing how much the person contributes or his value.
-Cleaning houses is an enormous value, and the person works so hard to do it, but we pay so little for it, and we devalue the person doing it as a 'low value profession'. But a clean house is of enormous value, to emotional well being and also health.
-I think CES system is very friendly to elderly people, because now, most people we earn the money from providing services, for instance, i'm salaried. It's paid from the company. But when I become old, I couldn't work for a company, I will be poor,
-And you'll be valued low as a retiree
-But in the modern system people's skill are valued at some kind of their physical contribution, including how long they can work in the office, or how much computing work they can do. So she mentioned that when she grows old, maybe she will be valued very low, and I mentioned that actually for some elders, they have the experience they can teach young people, even though they are zero valued in physical way, in some other ways they can contribute more than young people. And in the CES system, their value will be fairly valued.


I'll pick some more important points to share. For the money system, it indeed has a lot of benefits to our economy. Because where the demand exists, is where the supply comes. So with the economy keeping on growing, the money system replaced the barter system, because there's a lot of benefits. But just as she mentioned, in the money system, some skills are undervalued. And in my point of view, that's because although we regard money can be calculated fairly, however, actually the value judgment is from people, and especially from people with power. And those powerful people, they also decide the value of money. So I think maybe in the future the CES system has a chance to be a new kind of economic system.
And I want to say that, I maybe have a new opportunity to develop my career. To be a CES accountant. Because it will be so important to record everyone's transactions
-Whoa! Do you accept bribes
-Of course! It's an opportunity to earn money
-Then you can't be the administrator!!
-Really we are all human
-Exactly.
-And I can manipulate the system, and she can support me, because we are long term friends
-Oh my god, we don't even have a CES yet and we're already corrupted
-See, every system has their flaws.
-I have another thought. Maybe wikipedia or open source systems are a kind of CES.
-No, they don't exchange. Just one-way contribution
-Yes, they contribute and the thing grows, but they don't get direct value back.

I would like to share an idea even though the discussion is over.
I decided to send this mail in case of forgetting.
I think "money" is only conceptually existing such as intelligence or emotion.
The cash is a representative existing material as well as the digital storage devices.
The toddler would know what to eat, but not the thing which can be used to buy something to eat. Only when he/she knows the concept of money.


Notes from the discussion:
Nomadic
Reciprocity
Communality

Barter = direct exchange, value is equal, and it's a single transaction, transactional relationship ends at the end of the exchange

How does money work?
Money makes it easier to calculate the value of the exchange
Trusting the value of money is important for the money to have value--it's generally endorsed by central bank or gvt, or sb with power in that society.
It's easy to carry
Easier to hide on your person

How does an economy work, at basic?
Supply and demand
Someone creates something and someone needs it
The value of a product depends on how much it's in demand; depends on the demand for it

An economy is based on self interest
Adam Smith:
1. People are naturally self interested
Not everyone can produce everything, so some people are better at producing bread, some people are good at making milk, some people are good at building, but every one can get what they need, if everyone works hard to contribute, society will work well
Why do people do their best? Self-interest: he can get what he wants and needs
2. Division of labor
Everyone can do their professional thing, people get the most benefit from doing what they're good at

Does money 'exist'?
As long as the taiwan gvt exists, the 1000 exists
Money only exists when the people who use it trust it
What does 'existing' mean
Some people say god exists.
So, is it about faith?
Abstract existence vs. Material existence

Does money exist?
Abstractly 2
Materially 0
Or both 3

Why doesn't it exist materially?
The value of money only exists when people trust it or is endorsed by the gvt.
It's no longer gold-backed or silver-backed, so it's not material anymore
And it's no longer physical-economy-backed. Because now people can transfer paper or token money on the internet

It does exist materially, why?
There's a piece of paper, so it exists, it's material.
But what if it's just a 0 in the bank account.
But you have the bank book, or the electronic data is still a physical representation
In the past it did have material value, so I’m arguing it's both.
You can accumulate it, so it's material
But, you can accumulate knowledge
I can exchange this accumulated value of money, but you can't exchange knowledge as value.

What is 'barter' and why is it of limited value?
It's hard to carry
Coincidence of wants = it's hard to have the required demand and the required supply at exactly the time needed.
It makes the exchange difficult

Barter = direct exchange, value is equal, and it's a single transaction, transactional relationship ends at the end of the exchange
If people are happy with the exchange, equality of value is less important.

Valuation is hard with barter

Utility is different for different people, if you're very thirsty, you might pay more for a cup of water

Which came first: currency, barter, or credit?
Barter 2
Currency 0
Credit 3


CES = community exchange system
Actually is a community credit system

Non-physical commodities are easy to exchange internationally

Exchanging physical things internally

How to do community credit globally?
Letters of credit
Who endorses this letter?
Third-party endorsers: that can be any person, just has to have a powerful accounting system
That's what banks do now
And we use them, but we don't really trust them
Banks always cheat people
We fundamentally know that banks do not have our best interests at heart, but we still are dependent on their services



















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