討論逐字稿: Embracing Oneness, Rejecting Otherness

Concluding Statements:
I already concluded. I said that everyone had different definition of self, and it's based on different experience, different family different background. And reflect that the difference between us, that's how we think of our self, and for instance, she thinks she can choose who she is, and I think I can't, I am the reflection of how others think of me. and the difference between us is the different background different childhood, etc.
Actually, I always said, it's too serious for 20 times. I know, but I couldn't figure out that what is the self, of my definition, because, myself is myself.
I think, therefore I am!
I think my simple brian has no definition of myself, but according to everyone's defintion, I got more definition of self.
Is it?
In the papers, you know, but maybe I have never entered into my mental brain. But maybe I think that self-worth, I can agree that self worth, we can prove ourself to do some contribution or prove our value to the real life, the real world. Maybe! So maybe we could keep discussing this next time. Thank you! next!
I agree, it is too complicated! Because it is complicated, so, I want to simplify it. I think that self just like a unique individual on the earth, just like an apple...
Do apples have selves?
...the difference is we have souls, more complicated brains, souls, we can be aware of ourselves, so we have a lot of mood or some problems, and questions, like, "who I am, who are you" and, how to conclude? I don't have to join the discussion next week.
Haha, you escape
You can keep your conclusion to next week.
So, don't think too much, sleep well.
Thank you! excellent.
Okay, next.
Oh, OMG. Well, it was nice having a philosophical class.
Just don't do it too often, right?
Because I never really had a philosophy class before. Now I'm even more confused of the definition than before.
So you can say, 'Thank you so much'! (sarcasm)
Next?
I think it's a realization process, it's just like, we talked about three levels of, in chinese we say, 看山是山,看山不是山,看山是山. And the first stage of mountain is mountain and the third stage is different already, But right now I'm in the second stabge. I thought I know myself, I thought I know what self is, but right now, i don't even know how to describe what self is. So, I'm looking forward to moving toward the third stage, and then I'll gain my wisdom. And hopefully I'll reach the third...
mountain!
…stage. because nobody knows maybe I will never reach that stage.
I just want to say thank you all, because I'm not any clearer than before but this was really fun.

Discussion:
What's one thing you noticed about the video? Or thought about during the video?
She might have been struggling for her life for a long time, I think.

What's your feeling right now?
Heavy.
Yeah, it's really challenging, what she said.
Yeah, she uses hard words, some hard words that I couldn't understand what she means completely.
It's not just the words though.
The whole idea.
Too serious!
I'm confused. Because I thought a good actress should have a good understanding of herself, not a lack of herself. But she mentioned she's lacking a self.
Yeah, I also wondered about that.
What is a good actress? Why does a good actress need to have a good understanding of herself?
Because I think she might have a good feeling about connection between herself and other people, and then she can mimic, if someday she has to pretend to be somebody else. So she would need a good understanding of herself and other peope
But she says she has a lack of self, BUT she can understand others very well.
But I don't know why, if i can understand other people--
Know little about yourself.
Or know ourself too much. we just notice ourself, but it's hard to feel other's feeling, or--
but in this case she knows others very much.
But she mentions that she lacks herself, and that makes her able to feel others.
it's like she can completely become someone else, because she has no self, so she can become someone else.
Oh!
She cannot find herself?
Because she lacks herself.
No soul?
She can be everybody, but not herslef.
She was talking about essence, and self. I think it's like, essence is like your soul. And your self is like, like the operating system on your computer. So if you're doing a computer analogy, the essence is like the part that boots the computer up, and opens the operating system? You know what, this is not a good analogy.
I can't understand
So she thinks self is essence,
No, she thinks they're spearate
She thinks oneness is essence
Yeah maybe
But oneness is not equal to self, it's separate.

Any other impressions from the video?
She's beautiful!
And her arms and legs are perfectly straight, like a barbie.
I love her eyes
I love her voice
She's perfect, I think
You know, everyone likes her, in this reoom at least, but she has very low self esteem.
Do you think she still has?
I don't know, you have to ask her in person, otherwise nobody knows.

What is a self? Based on others' teachings? Based on your own sense?
Oh, it's too hard!

Are you separate from yourself, or is it the same thing?
Can someone have multiple selves?
Yes.
Maybe.
Like, self is a reflection of me from others point of view.
That's one good definition.
But that's other's point of veiw, it is not yourself. It is not you becaus eit is other's point of view. So it is NOT self!
Then, what is self?
I don't know!!!!
Just brainstorming, okay?
Don't be serious.
So everyone just say the first thing comes to your mind.
So, you go first.
Okay, it's the thing that thinks.
What?
That's all I can say.
Authentic.
Authentic what?
Self
You can't say self!
Authentic being.
Okay, acceptable. Next?
Some kind of authority, myself can control what I'm thinking what I'm doing, so I think it's a kind of authority
What's the dictionary say?
We'll check in a second. No getting out of this!
('later' feels like a few hours from now, if you mean right away, say 'in a minute' or 'in a second')
The best comfortable one of me is 'self'. I feel that's what I am, or i feel free for everything.
So the real self make you feel free?
Yeah, that's what, you don't need to--
Sometimes I get mad at myself,
Yeah, so is that what you feel?
I feel that's not the real self of me. I think that's kind of a reflection of others, when you feel nervous or uncomfortable or angry that's no tthe real self, that's another part of me, I don't know, I feel confused.
The most original state of being.
I think the real self of mine is, has several aspect of thinking. Because I don't think the self is unique or something, but I think I have several aspects of myself, because I feel happy, I feel sad, or excited or something, so maybe that's my real self.

from dictionary.com
self  noun
1. a person or thing referred to with respect to complete individuality: one's own self.
2. a person's nature, character, etc.: his better self.
3. personal interest.
4. Philosophy .
a. the ego; that which knows, remembers, desires, suffers, etc., as contrasted with that known, remembered, etc.
b. the uniting principle, as a soul, underlying all subjective experience.

adjective
5. being the same  throughout, as a color; uniform.
6. being of one piece with or the same  material as the rest: drapes with a self lining.
7. Immunology . the natural constituents of the body, which are normally not subject to attack by components of the immune system ( contrasted with nonself).
8. Obsolete . same.

I like no. 7: the stuff that the immune system recognizes as you. i.e. don't attack this.


Are we born with a self? Don't think about it too deeply, go with your gut.
yes x2
no x4
I don't know
No ''i don't knows.
Okay, no. because 'I don't know' and 'no' are similar.
Hahah, wait, why no?
Because, I don't think self is a reflection of emotion. I think self should have to make decisions, but I don't think a newborn baby can make diecisions, they just can express their emotion. I think self should be a long long creation process.
Okay, I think it's the part of you that carries over when you reincarnate. Otherwise, why is it reincarnation and not like a new human being? Something has to link it all together. So when you're born you have this essence, and you construct this lifetime's self as you grow up.
By my definition of self, it's the reflection from others' point of view, so the person of the self will take time to develop and integrate others' point of view.
Okay, so why yes?
Based on my definition of self as authentic being, I think newborn babies are real. Um, people change over time when we grow up, and we go astray from our real self, and then one day we'll go back, but not everyone of us will go back to our real self. but what I mean is, newborn babies are real.
Maybe next time we can have a more relaxing conversation. Oh, this is so serious!! I can't think anymore!
Next time, picnic!
Yes! good idea.
Any other yes's want to explain why yes?
My definition was original state of being, um, I think similar to what Stacy says, when you're born, there's no social, no one taught you anytyhing, and that's the real self, and as time goes by, people teach you this is right or that is right and every culture is different. I feel like all of this thoughts and beleifs can be taken off, like clothes, and when all of this is taken off then that's the real self.

Is the self alive? Is the self a real thing in the world?
Sure!
Well, I think Thandie said the self isn't.
If the self is not really exist in the world, then what is ourself?
That's why I'm so challenged by this video you understand now!!!!
I think, based on her, maybe she has a terrible story of her, and in her story, she was struggling to fit into her social world, and at that time, in her world, she thinks herself was not alive.
At that time. Maybe she has herself now, maybe.
But for all the people here, I think our selves are all alive. Or part of ourselves are alive.
I'm willing to go with that.
So part of yourself is not alive? That's a very philosophical question. Even the word is hard!!!
Honestly I think what we talk about every week is philosophical, just that today is more overtly philosophical. covert = secret overt = in your face.

Is your self separate from who you are?
I'm going to say 'yes.' But you don't have to agree with me.
But, what you mean, 'who you are' means that how people project you, or how people see you,
Or how i see myself?
No.
So why is it different.
I think you have a higher self, which goes with you when you reincarnate, and a self, which is built in this lifetime, and a body, which is the physical thing that you can see. But that's just what I think, why I think it's separate.
I agree with you. Because if someone asks who are you, I'll say I'm amy, someone who works in blah blah industry. that's what people think who I am, but that is not myself! It's just a coat.
So your name is your coat?
You know, that reminds me, when I was 10 I saw myself in the mirror as I was about to go downstairs in our house, and I looked in that mirror every day, but that day, I looked and suddenly thought, 'oh, so THIS is what I look like.' And it was like I just discovered myself. I wonder if that was like my essence realising something, rather than my self. LIke, oh, that's what I look like in this lifetime Like, if the macbook woke up and was all, holy cow, I'm silver on the outside.
Sometimes I got the same feeling, like you. Like the person in the mirror is a stranger.
I read this stuff before, a story about a woman searching for herself. and she experienced divorce and stuff, and inside the story is like this old woman who's a wise teacher, and the old woman asks this woman, 'who are you', and she starts saying, okay, I'm a wife I have children, I work here. The old woman says, that's an outside defintion, but who are you really? And then she thought for a moment and said, okay, I'm introverted, I'm easygoing, all these adjectives, and then the old woman says, that's still a definition of you, who are you really?
Then?
Thank you! That's what I was thinking. So, then?
There was no answer?
I kind of forgot. But i think it's kind of like the essence. But I forgot exactly what the book is talking about.
So it's a very hard question to answer.
Yes
But it's worth spending some time on it. Obviously we're not going to come up with a revoutionary new definition of self, but, we talk around this issue a lot, so I wanted to spend some time at the center of the question.

What or who determines who your self is?
You were talking about 'others'.
Yeah.
How about advertisements? 3000/day, for americans. Does that determine your self? or just affect it? How much of what your self is, is created by parents and family? For instance, I'm super like my mom. I'm the most like my mom in my family.
I'm super like my dad.
So, self means other people opinions about you?
That's not what I was saying, but that's another thing to consider.
I think part of ourself will be affected by others, our parents, our friends, the people around us. So, the real self, will still change, for me I think. That is me, even the current me is different than the me yesterday, but it's still me.
I was thinking, am I the same as when I was a teenager? in some ways, yes, but I know so much more now, I'm a lot better at a lot of things now, so I'm differnt, but it's better. I also think I know how to be myself better than when I was a teenager, if that makes any sense. I think I know how to be true to myself better now, than even five years ago.
What does true to yourself mean?
Ha. yes.
True to ourself, sometimes we lie to ourselves, right?
Yeah
And that lie will become more easier!
Yes!
You mean the lie makes things easier?
No, it's easier and easier to lie, once you start.
But things get harder for you when you lie! And it gets easier for you when you face it. For instance, earlier this semseter, I probably made a mistake, but I didn't want to face it, but then one day I actually checked it, and then I knew, I actually made a mistake. But then I felt much better, because I faced it, because I got rid of a puzzle in my mind, and then I just tried to find a way to fix it. At the very begininng I just felt like lying to myself, I didn't do anything wrong ther, but you feel it.
I think it seems easier to run away when it's really huge, but in fact you're right, it's actually easier to face it.
I think when you lie to yourself, days and months later, you realize it's not true--
When you are lying to yourself, who is 'you'?
I think it's the logical mind.
Yeah.
And that's not you?
Sometimes I will talk to myself, a kind of murmuring.
The honest self, and the lying self, have a conversation in your mind.
Yeah. Angel and devil.
So then you have more than one self.
Sometimes!
Because you have two part of yourself. One is good and one is bad, right?
No, not really.
But we all have evil parts.
Realy? even you?
What do you mean by that?
Yeah, you want to kick kids?
Hit them, yell at them!
Yeah, is that your evil part?
We all have the desire to do bad things, I think.
But is that evil?
I don't like good, bad, evil whatever. If I want to do something bad doesn't mean I'M bad.
But others think you're bad?
Yeah, but it's just that i've done something bad.
It's the definition by society.

What does your self come from?
Others
I think it's a mix of others and your essence and your experiences.


Thandie Newton said, "Our little portion of oneness is given a name, is told all kinds of things about itself, and these details, opinions and ideas become facts, which go towards building ourselves, our identity. And that self becomes the vehicle for navigating our social world. But the self is a projection based on other people's projections." Agree or disagree?
Disagree. I still don't think self is a projection based on other people's opinion. They just imagine who i am based on my appearance, or background or something else. That's not my self!
Any other takers?
I'm confused now.
I'm very confused.
Because I beleive you really do have self when you are just born, and now I am already…. Self is an idea that omes from other peope and is influenced by our family, our culture, our education, and I don't know, the self itself is a…
The self itself!! hahaha
But I thought for you, the definition, the true self was covered by other things, not in fact
Well, the self we were born with is not influenced by, it's there, it's not influenced by other people. I don't know if it's born with or the concept we will accumulate over time as we grow up.
What did you mean by, 'That's not my self?'
Mmm. That's not true. Maybe my colleage thinks I'm a quiet person, maybe, because when I, it's so hard to think of an example. I think other people, or friends areound me, even my parents, they just know some part of me, but not
Totally you.
Yes, they cannot know
All of you, or who you are
Yes
But sometimes I feel confused, what I am is this kind of person, but when I get information from others, they think what I am is this other kind of figure, and sometimes I wonder which one is ther eal me. for instance my mother thinks I am a bad-mood person, or and easeir-said-than-done person, so maybe I will start to think it's the real part of me, so I don't figure it out.
But I don't know who can decide who you are.
I forgot wha tyour definition of self is.
Oh, it's 'some kind of authority'
If the self is the authority, the self has the authority to choose who it is.
To choose!
Why are you laughing?
Like an alien! I can choose anything, this appearance, that appearnace!
Can't you? I think we kind of do though. Like, when I dress for the day, I like to dress how I feel, otherwise I feel weird all day, that the clothes I'm wearing and my mood are so different. But sometimes I have to dress how others need me to, meaning, I have to look a certain way to make them feel comfortable, or to send a certain message about who they're dealing with. The i that's choosing, I guess that's the self.
outlook = attitude "what's your outlook on life?" Oh, I'm pretty optomistic.
wai biao = appearance

Is the self who we should be?
I found that we all have totally different defiinition of self. That's based on different background, different family, different culture, even.
So do you know what is your true self?
Not relaly, I'm always confused about my true self.
You are fanny.
But that's just a coat. A code. I have my name, my nicknames, and idfferent identities on the internet,
And I will show different aspects according to different names of mine. LIke on the internet, I will show an aspect of me to be as me, and I will show Fanny in this class to be as me, and I will show my chinese name in the office to be as me.
So we express different aspects of ourself according to different names.
So ourself will change, our next question.
Yes! thank you! We already answered the next one. And the next one!

Can your self change?
Can you break a self and start over with a new one?
Because that's what Thandie said. I thought, she had a really hard life.
I'm so confused now.
I don't think you can destroy a self, it's too...!
Why is it important to ask this kind of question.
We don't have to, you know.
No, but we talk about this, when people have problems, we ask them to go back to themselves, to find the problem,so this should be importlant, but, why is it important? We are not able to answer this question.
It's too hard
You've said that like 20 times now.
It's really hard, I'm sorry but…!

Thandie Newton told a story about her anthroopology professor:
"Dr. Phyllis Lee gave me my interview, and she asked me, "How would you define race?" "So biology, genetics?" she said. "Because, Thandie, that's not accurate. Because there's actually more genetic difference between a black Kenyan and a black Ugandan than there is between a black Kenyan and, say, a white Norwegian. Because we all stem from Africa. So in Africa, there's been more time to create genetic diversity." In other words, race has no basis in biological or scientific fact. … Race is an illegitimate concept which our selves have created based on fear and ignorance."
Does race exist? How would you define race?

Actually, race doesn't exist!
Race is a problem we create.
I kind of knew that already, because I saw this video about dna between animals, and the appearance has nothing to do with the...
Genetic diversity or what--
…with who is related to who.
The genetics of two birds can be even more different than a bird and a whale.
Really?
That kind of blows my mind.
Wow
We are all one
We are the world!
Hahaha
So how can we answer who we are?

What does 'self-worth' mean? Is it valuable to have? Is there other kinds of worth associated with a person? Are these more or less important than self-worth?
Value yourself.
And you beleive what you can do, and--
You can prove by yourself
Prove what?
Prove the contribution, no that's too serious, or, acheivement? No that's too serious too. Okay, contribution.
Why are you worried about being too serious all the time?
Because today is too serious.








1 comment:

  1. When watching the speech, Newton talked about "Oneness" and it kept reminding me of philosophies originating from India.
    I think it's interesting how she draws "oneness" and the topic of "self" together.
    So the problem of integrity comes. How do I become "one" and how to become "oneself"?

    This is so philosophical, so I have no answer for that.
    But nowadays, people do become further and further away from "their original state", and not keep in touch with "the original state"
    I guess this is what the speech is talking about.

    Anyway, that's my conclusion for yesterday. :)

    ReplyDelete